Curse

TedTheDead · Aug 02, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

I remember reading before, not specifically about ANet but MMOs in general. The idea of making gold available for purchase in exchange for real life money brings a huge amount of legal issues and many visits from the IRS and political figures. I personally do not see the point in buying gold, but I also would not care if they made a legal avenue for it. However I assume it would simply be far too much of a hassle for them to provide that.

Then again I have given them real money for character slots that technically do not exist if a hard drive or two or twenty died....hrmmm

Diablo™ · Aug 02, 2007, 02:41 AM // 02:41

It's a game, although its suppose to simulate real-life economy, legalizing gold sales would just turn it into a battle of whose-got-a-bigger-wallet. There's a huge range audience, from kids and teenagers, to well off yuppies and young adults, and it would be highly unfair to expect kids to churn out the same amount of cash as an upper-middle class yupster.

Entreri · Aug 02, 2007, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew The Wise

But why has'nt Anet or NCsoft or whomever!

come to realize that the market for Online gold is a goldmine! (no pun intended)

Why does'nt Anet or NCsoft sell their OWN guildwars gold online, and "legalize" the purchase of that gold?

Once a game does this, it gets dangerous. Even with the chinese gold farmers, they do have to put effort into the game to get the gold to sell. Anet can generate it out of thin air. Anet could also add a bunch of extra gold sinks if they wanted... it would create a lot more demand for gold purchases but would suck for everybody who just wants to play the game without buying gold.

Eve Online has something where it's OK for people to sell time cards in game for in game gold (ISK in this case). This seems to be a decent compromise since extra gold isn't getting added into the in game economy (all cash is obtained by a player). The company still gets all the money (the cash for the time card), one person gets the in game cash they want, and the other person gets benefits in the form of a time card.

I would like it if they did something similar in GW. We obviously don't need time cards but if people could buy and offer items from the in game store, like for instance extra char slots or upgrades like GWEN and trade them to others. Eve's economy didn't blow up so it seems viable.

Retribution X · Aug 02, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Lets just IP-track botters, and kill them, thus stopping E-baying.

Problem solved. have a nice day!

Entreri · Aug 02, 2007, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Its their product. Its their service. Its their servers. Its their bandwidth. Why should a third party be allowed to profit from it?

They arent licensed. They arent given permission.

Try running to a business, and then have someone suddenly enter your property and start profiting from YOUR customers.

This ignores the fact that third parties are profiting from it right now regardless of it being against the EULA. Worse, game companies aren't real enthusiastic about pressing the issue in court. The reason is because then a judge would rule on it... and it's possible the judge could decide that you actually have some rights to all that cool stuff in your inventory.

If that happens, game companies could get sued by players if the server crashed and they lost items, etc. So it remains a grey area because neither side really wants to lose.

Entreri · Aug 02, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. It causes rampant, crippling inflation in the in-game economy. The fact that gold can be sold for real world cash, creates a HUGE incentive for bot farming and third-world gold farming. And that pumps a HUGE amount of gold that would have otherwise never existed into the economy. Money supply goes up; worth-purchasing item supply stays constant; the result is inflation.

2. As a result of this inflation, players who don't buy gold are forced out of the economy entirely. Even if they farm regularly, and they're good at it, they simply can't make enough gold on their own to buy anything at the inflated prices.

Gold can be sold for real world cash right now. However, I don't see rampant crippling inflation in the in-game economy and I don't buy gold yet don't feel forced out of the economy entirely. Changes by Anet have actually reversed some of these trends... things like ectos cost less now.

The rampant inflation thing happened in EQ, but this was due to an exploit allowing players to DUPE items. That's what will kill an in-game economy quick. Fortunately Anet has been on the ball with regards to this and GW hasn't had that problem.

Vyldan · Aug 02, 2007, 03:43 AM // 03:43

I would like to add that "selling time spent on work" is not a viable excuse. Time is a resource, and that has already been used to create a product. The gold. You cannot bake bread and sell the flour.

lyra_song · Aug 02, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entreri

This ignores the fact that third parties are profiting from it right now regardless of it being against the EULA. Worse, game companies aren't real enthusiastic about pressing the issue in court. The reason is because then a judge would rule on it... and it's possible the judge could decide that you actually have some rights to all that cool stuff in your inventory.

If that happens, game companies could get sued by players if the server crashed and they lost items, etc. So it remains a grey area because neither side really wants to lose.

Whos ignoring the fact? What does my statement about the reasoning why its wrong have anything to do with the current state of affairs?

Placing a real world monetary value on virtual items that are meant to be playthings is very dangerous.

It brings taxes and lawsuits.

And ive mentioned before that a court judgement is what is needed so all MMORPGs can permanently shut down these guys based on a LEGAL and not EULA based reason.

And as ive mentioned before, its not just finding something to be legally wrong, but actually prosecuting it. Especially since a lot of these people operate outside the US jurisdiction, how can Anet get such laws upheld?

ainkami · Aug 02, 2007, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Just want to make some points that might not be obvious to some people.

-All MMORPGs since their first day of operation have coexisted with virtual gold sellers and power levelers.

-As longs the virtual currency can be used to purchase game items that are highly desired by someone, the virtual currency will be worth real life money.

-Millions of virtual currency has exchanged hands between buyers and farmers. Just check ebay log. It hasn't disabled any MMORPG's economy and won't disable any in the future.

-People with money will always have the best gear and character. It occurs in real life and it occurs in virtual world as well. Do you whine when you see someone driving a bmw in real life? No? Why whine and complain here in guild wars?

-No major MMORPG has ever banned a portion of user base based strictly on purchasing virtual currency. In essence, there is no punishment because the practice is so widespread. Although many MMORPGs like to threaten punitive actions and point out EULA agreements, this is mainly to pacify and appease "honest" players on the server.

-EULA document is a joke. Whatever contained in them is more or less irrelevant. It has never been rigorlessly challenged in court of law in the US. The golden rule is: Whoever runs the server can do whatever they please.

TabascoSauce · Aug 02, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Stop doing this. You can't apply real-world fairness to a videogame, because unlike the real world, there's a single omnipotent entity making all of the rules.

Real life isn't fair, but a game can be forced to be so. Analogies don't apply.

I understand your point, and how it would be nice to see a fair and equitable system being put into place so that the divide that exists in the real world would not be applicable in-game.

But as other posters have eloquently written, there is a haves and have nots divide in-game.

So, if I was one of the working, family type players who do not have the time to devote to this game that others do, why would you contend that it would be fair to effectively marginalize me, because my hypothetical time budget is spent elsewhere? Are you seriously suggesting that it is more or less fair to have players who have more time to play the game would be equivalent to them having a degree from an Ivy league college and therefore are entitled to more?

You are stating that the game world is fair. This is not the case. The fact that I have priorities that do not include spending actual currency on an intangible like guild wars gold is a choice of mine, and I do not begrudge it in the slightest. Even were they to legalize or start selling their own game gold, my money has better uses. My lawn needs mowing, which I do myself, and having a house entails maintenance, not to mention my eventual retirement.

But that does not alter the fact that those who have less available time are, gold-wise, poor compared to players who do. They have time to farm instead of kids and jobs (or in the case of gold farmers, that is their job) so they get more. This is the fair you are speaking of?

I find it interesting that you are willing to discard real-world references and analogies, which are applicable whatever you may say, and advocate fairness in a virtual world where, obviously, scarcity does not exist and inequality is based on time and inclination. Everyone can have everything in the virtual game-world, and we would all still have real beds to sleep in when we stop playing.

So, when you say fair, are you advocating an achievement engine so that players who have the time to play and grind (or the inclination and cash to purchase gold) can feel good about themselves by having virtual phat lewtz that they expect others to be impressed by, or an actually fair place? Hehe.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Vinraith · Aug 02, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhu

so anet should do what the op suggested: sell on-line gold to undermine the bots! problem solved.

If Anet ever actually did that I'd stop playing the game, and I'm quite certain most of the player base would go with me. The fun of the game is earning things, if people can just buy them it's not even a game anymore.

MrFuzzles · Aug 02, 2007, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

So, for all you nay-sayers, answer me this - is a wealthy person cheating when he goes to the hospital and gets good medical care?

This isn't relevant at all. It is not against the rules to go to the hospital. People who have access to good medical care are intended to use it.

Buying gold using real cash is specifically against the rules.

A more fitting metaphor would be is a wealthy athlete cheating when he uses drugs in the olympics? He spent his own money on it after all, it should be none of your business. It's an unfair world.

Thinking the rule doesn't apply to you because you feel the rule is dumb is self-centered. If you do not like the rules, you do not play the game.

Curse You · Aug 02, 2007, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

So, for all you nay-sayers, answer me this - is a wealthy person cheating when he goes to the hospital and gets good medical care?

Going to a hospital doesn't violate any rules. Therefore your question is null and I'll ignore the rest of your post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snikerz

@ OP
when you wrote anet via support did you include your IGN and that you admit to buying gold?

thats rather silly on your behalf isnt it?

i'm sure someone with nothing better to do would try report you with "quotes" from your post etc.

so yeah you might wanna take off your IGN on your guru account.

They never go off information on a fansite. I could easly put my character name as anything I wanted. I could then run around the forums telling everyone about how I bought gold. The person who actually plays that character isn't the only person who can put that name in their profile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelica

[i]Players shouldn't have to farm or anything else to get gold it's frustrating enough going through the campaigns to get a drop of 4 or 8 pieces of gold to be shared by your group! This happen to me very often and not at the beginning but almost at the end of the game! Buying keys for chests is useless I always get purples crap! Plus not everybody likes to sell items, it isn't what the game is about!

I wish they would make the gold drops not shareable with heroes, after all we are paying for their equipments; runes, items etc. Etc.
And, lastly, they should increase the amount of gold drops, which at this moment are really pitiful.

You don't need 15k armor, Crystalline Swords or even runes.

It is possible to beat the whole game with just 1k armor (no insignias) with collector weapons. All of which can be paid for with the money you get by simply playing. No excessive farming needed.

Selor · Aug 02, 2007, 07:55 AM // 07:55

It can either inflates the economy and pretty soon the only way to obtain the vast sums to buy it, making their claim of "No additional fee's" wrong.

Or it will under-inflate the economy and people who had lots of gold are the only ones who will stay rich, as item prices will drop drastically (200 gold ectos?)

manitoba1073 · Aug 02, 2007, 08:08 AM // 08:08

LOL really some people make a good rolfcopter at times.

First there are 2 economies in GW. 1 is Vanity based and the 2nd is needed items based.

Now onto the Vanity Based stuff, Gee some people think 15k armors are vanity based and should be extremely hard to get just look at what all the pro-loot scallers are saying in the numerous threads. And yet here we are most of you are saying about vanity weapons which are the same as vanity armors should be dirt cheap lol. Try to stay on the same side of the coin I think most of you guys flip flop more than a damn mcdonalds cook.

Now onto the needed things- such as skills and those. They have a fixed priced so no matter how much you wanna whine to Anerf there never was nor will there be any inflation on them due to how much money is ingame. Christ there is already an unlimited amount of gold ingame as it can be generated unlimited.

Now OT sorta
Frankly it was 100x better for everyone before lootscalling as it only took a few minutes farming to get needed items. Which made the game much more enjoyable for lots of people. There was no need then and now as we see more and more people are seeing a higher need to buy gold. Loot scalling is a big failure. Do I care or does it bother my gaming if someone buys it, not in the slightest bit. what does bother me is Anerfs damn botphobia.

But you really shouldnt be buying the gold, as stated in the EULA. Not that it bothers me 1 bit if you did or will do. As long as it makes your gaming fun is all that matters to me.

And to be honest with you all I truely cant wait till someone cracks open GW fully and can be ran on private servers which with the way things have been happing prolly wont be much longer.

TabascoSauce · Aug 02, 2007, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFuzzles

This isn't relevant at all. It is not against the rules to go to the hospital. People who have access to good medical care are intended to use it.

Buying gold using real cash is specifically against the rules.

A more fitting metaphor would be is a wealthy athlete cheating when he uses drugs in the olympics? He spent his own money on it after all, it should be none of your business. It's an unfair world.

Thinking the rule doesn't apply to you because you feel the rule is dumb is self-centered. If you do not like the rules, you do not play the game.

Sigh. You and Curse You are not thinking this through. Hint - disparate economies.

So, suppose 1) if we were both US citizens, 2) I was a poor man with basic HMO medical, and 3) you were a wealthy person of indeterminate gender who needed no HMO yet still had one for convenience, and 4) we both need heart bypasses.

We have a business type contractual agreement with the HMO, which is equivalent in the United States courts system to (you guessed it) a EULA. They are both signed (or consented to by opening and using the product) business contracts. Neither is suable in a criminal court, unless there is financial harm. But, both ANet and our HMO have the option at any time to discontinue service if we break the agreement. That is their recourse specifically held by them and mentioned as their recourse if anyone should break the contract.

It is not against the criminal law system of the US, and incidentally people do it all the time, to go overseas for the specific and only purpose of obtaining medical care. Heart bypasses in Thailand are cheaper. Not to mention that they are literally resort communities, with spas and back massagers at local labor rates. Our HMOs do not pay for them, at all, and object to their use because the money is not going into their bank accounts.

Is it unfair for you, who can afford to go overseas, to do so to get patently better medical care than I, who is unable to pay the 50 thousand dollars for an overseas heart bypass and have to deal with my HMO? It is your money, and you have an option that I do not. We would only be breaking business contracts, BTW.

It is not quite so simple. And if it makes you feel better, substitute "want maxillofacial cosmetic surgery" for "need heart bypass".

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

TRUEgamer · Aug 02, 2007, 01:16 PM // 13:16

A few of you guys have referred to gold farming businesses as being sweat shops, though this is actually not true and partly the basis for my constant defending of selling farmed gold.

A lot of the gold farming takes place in a few Asian countries, namely China where there is actually a market for gold farming employment. A recent article run by PCGamer (I think, though it may have been CGW) explained that those who work for a company that farms gold only get paid about a dollar an hour (after the American-Chinese exchange rate), but in their economy, a dollar an hour is actually a really decent payrate. It's equivalent to about $11 or $12 an hour over here.

A lot of companies will also provide housing for their farmers. So, $11 an hour AND FREE room and board???

Those sweatshops and treating their employees inhumanely :shakefist:

Political leaders of said countries have actually gone on the record and admitted that the market for gold farming has been benefitial for their markets and economies.

Of course, there is also the down side where one person without extra cash has to farm for weeks/months on end to grab that Obsidian armor, whereas those with access to cash can get the armor overnight for about $70. It provides a severe disadvantage for those with money over those without it.

Anyway, take that for what you will.

[edit] what I find really interesting is that even after loot scaling and nerfing the farming in-game, the companies have still found a way to get gold enough so that it is again about $7 for 100k. A few of my guildies never thought they would see that again.

Kakumei · Aug 02, 2007, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

But as other posters have eloquently written, there is a haves and have nots divide in-game.

Yes, but this divide exists solely due to time available (which you addressed) and player skill (which you didn't).

Quote:

So, if I was one of the working, family type players who do not have the time to devote to this game that others do, why would you contend that it would be fair to effectively marginalize me, because my hypothetical time budget is spent elsewhere? Are you seriously suggesting that it is more or less fair to have players who have more time to play the game would be equivalent to them having a degree from an Ivy league college and therefore are entitled to more?

What? No one is "entitled" to anything. This is completely different from the real world, as I stated before. Everyone started from the same basis--having absolutely nothing--and everyone had to work their own way up (bought gold notwithstanding, and we're going to pretend it doesn't currently exist for the rest of this post). No one gets anything for free.

Everyone had to earn their own gold. Some people found better ways to do it than others, but that's due to their own skill and persistence. Time available isn't the only thing that matters--someone who is fantastic at playing the market will make more money in an hour than your average person will make farming in a week.

Quote:

You are stating that the game world is fair.

No, I am stating that fairness can be enforced absolutely in a virtual world.

Quote:

But that does not alter the fact that those who have less available time are, gold-wise, poor compared to players who do. They have time to farm instead of kids and jobs (or in the case of gold farmers, that is their job) so they get more. This is the fair you are speaking of?

Not necessarily. See above. I have a full-time job, and I wouldn't call myself poor, because I have found successful ways of getting money.

Quote:

I find it interesting that you are willing to discard real-world references and analogies, which are applicable whatever you may say

Yeah you let me know when a single entity starts altering the rules of reality.

Quote:

and advocate fairness in a virtual world where, obviously, scarcity does not exist and inequality is based on time and inclination. Everyone can have everything in the virtual game-world, and we would all still have real beds to sleep in when we stop playing.

Doesn't this agree with my point? Everyone can have everything if they are skilled enough to get it.

Quote:

So, when you say fair, are you advocating an achievement engine so that players who have the time to play and grind (or the inclination and cash to purchase gold) can feel good about themselves by having virtual phat lewtz that they expect others to be impressed by, or an actually fair place?

What's wrong with letting people who achieve things have something to show for their accomplishments? Who cares if they grinded for it, or got a single lucky drop, or played the market, or whatever?

Westofeden · Aug 02, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

In before this guy gets banned for admitting to being a Ebayer. Apparently some people didn't know buying gold online is illegal.

Big_Iron · Aug 02, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

I know I’ve said it a 1000 times, but it still just boggles my mind that people will buy gold when it’s so easy to earn in GW. I’m a casual player that has earned a healthy amount of gold by simply playing the game for the last two years. That’s not saying I haven’t farmed some. Of course I have, but I’ve never gotten that “big ticket” item other than Victo’s Bulwark back in its heyday. Up until the loot scaling fiasco (yes, in my humble opinion it is still a fiasco and should be rolled back), gold was painfully easy to get in GW. But even now, gold is relatively easy to earn.

Now, here’s my disclaimer. I’ve lived a fairly conservative life in GW. I don’t have any chars with FoW armor. I have relatively few vanity weapons. What I do have, for the most part, I’ve gotten myself. But I’m happy with what I do have. All my chars have the armor and weapons they need to play the game. On a couple of chars I did splurge and get them 15k armor, but not for status. Simply because I liked the looks. The rest have your standard max armor and weapons and I’m content with that. So, I don’t believe anyone who tries to tell me they HAD to buy gold to play the game. It’s just not necessary.